Racism in Slimelight [Archive]

fad

09-12-2003, 08:23 AM

Now, it may just be coincidence but over the last couple of weeks a few people have had to be ejected for using racial epithets in the company of non-caucasians.
If this indicates a growing trend for 'rightward-leaning' attitudes in the Goth/Alternative community I'd just like to tell those responsible, at the risk of sounding offensive, to please stop bothering to come...and ideally to go fuck themselves with something large, sharp and bacteria laden.
The Punk scene, from which our dear club evolved, was all about inclusivity and if a bunch of pseudo Nazis think that they know better then I suggest they find something else to do of a weekend or learn to keep their stupid racist mouths shut while in the company of those of us with the brains to see beyond lame, bigotted stereotypes.

Feel free, of course, to continue to act like a racist cunt, if that's your particular 'bag'...but be warned in advance that if we hear of anyone making derogatory comments about people based on the colour of their skin, they WILL be asked to leave, probably without their membership and, with a bit of luck, a few of their teeth!!
Happy Christmas one and all....(with the exception of the above mentioned Nazi fuckwits to whom we wish nothing more than a slow and painfull death).
Sorry if that sounds harsh but what can you do??
Comments anyone?!

Vampira

09-12-2003, 02:01 PM

Comments anyone?!

Only "Too fucking right!".

That's unbelieveable!

There have been so many messages on this board about goths getting abused, beaten up, ridiculed and bullied for the way they look, that it's incredible that some of the same people who may have experienced that should turn round and make racists comments based simply on someone's skin tone.

Jesus! If you don't like discrimination against you, don't do it to someone else. Goth should be about the music and the attitude, not on race.

09-12-2003, 03:45 PM

Well said! ... nothing more to add really!

Skylizard

09-12-2003, 03:47 PM

I'm not a racist I just hate everyone equally. :evil:

mr_trikkle

10-12-2003, 01:19 AM

confused yet undastand in fully
x

faticeira

10-12-2003, 01:33 PM

What is wrong with this world??!! Just gets worse :/

MotherBrain

10-12-2003, 02:26 PM

ohhh nice photo :oops:

faticeira

10-12-2003, 02:32 PM

ohhh nice photo :oops:

Mine? If so, thanks very much. If not, then ooooooooooops :o

MotherBrain

10-12-2003, 02:39 PM

yeah yours... it's excellent.... :0

fad

13-12-2003, 02:02 AM

MotherBrain

13-12-2003, 05:01 AM

erm well, u just brought the whole thing back up again.. i ended the topic my chatting someone up... and then u start with the rasicst comment again,,,, are u trying to start something off? no one else cares. :oops:

but on an off note... i am really pissed off now.. i am drunk../. i have been in liverpool on a top night out.. all the crowd fucked me off.. and one of the little twats had my coat number for the cloak room and of course i THINK he left with my coat as well as his.. anyway i was forced to pay 12 quid to get back home from liverpool , its lucky i had money on me :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: but i;m fucking pissed off... i was left alone... i have lost my coat and the FITTEST bird ever that i was getting off with, her stupid boyfriend had to show up and wreck my night even more (damn she was fit) apart from that had a pretty decent night... i had 4 fit birds... not bad for a place that was quite empty....

so instead of talking about rascisum (can't spell. i'm drunk) let's talk about how fucked up your nights out have been... :?: :?: :?:

Skylizard

13-12-2003, 12:30 PM

Any danger of a serious debate about racism in the alternative community here or what??!!!
For example, does anyone have any strong feelings regarding the section of the fetish crowd who choose to wear Nazi gear, in order to be either shocking, provocative or because they think it's appropriate!!
....and is there an underlying political message there or purely a fashion statement....of sorts?
Discuss.....or alternatively, don't bother...it's your ball-court!!!!
Fad

I think this is a subject for me best left alone, I have very strong views on things like this, but they are not always run of the mill and agreable, so i'll stay clear of this one, but you guys have fun.

Motherbrain....Unlucky dude...Start a new thread about your lost out love life, and maybe if you hadn't been chasing other guys girlfriends you may not have lost out to start with.

MotherBrain

13-12-2003, 12:47 PM

erm, i think u mis understood what i said... i didn't know she was taken.
and the only thing i lost was my damn coat... anyway i wanted to start a thread off, and everyone can tell of their bad and unlucky nights.... its better than talking about racsium isn't it?? :x

Blink

13-12-2003, 01:34 PM

Anyway i wanted to start a thread off, and everyone can tell of their bad and unlucky nights.... its better than talking about racsium isn't it?? :x

See the "new topic" button, that is how you start a thread off.
Try not hijacking other people's threads.

As for Racism, can't say I've ever noticed it, but I have always thought it was a bit sad that you tend not to see many "minorities! in alternative clubs, bt I think this is more to do with culture as opposed to racism

Skylizard

13-12-2003, 02:55 PM

Skylizard

13-12-2003, 02:56 PM

Skylizard

13-12-2003, 02:57 PM

faticeira

13-12-2003, 03:30 PM

Fad, I would like to help you out as I have a lot to say, but decided not to ;)

I will say one thing though: it's funny how some people, not necessarily at slimes, who genuinely are into these racist ideas and so forth, are the exact same people who would have been targeted and persecuted by the Nazis.

However, about fashion, I do not think that people who wear military clothing are racists or do it to be racist. I believe it's a loved fashion the same as cyber and goth, etc... And hey, I have met wonderful, kind people who wear it and look great (no Nazis propaganda on them or anything like that).

ZRNA

13-12-2003, 05:53 PM

There is a very interesting article on the subject by the lovely Mick Mercer:
http://www.morbidoutlook.com/nonfiction/articles/2003_10_notclothes.html

fad

13-12-2003, 06:57 PM

If you wear Nazi gear, in any way, without having the guts to declare you are a Nazi, then you are worse than a Nazi. You empathise with them on an unconscious level, but you havenâ€™t the guts to the full way. Anyone sensible loathes the very idea of these people, but at least with genuine Nazi skinheads you now where you stand. Either on their head, or well out of reach, depending on the situation.

Just a quick snippet of the article pointed out by Zrna, above, to get your appetites whetted!!

Lustmord666

13-12-2003, 07:36 PM

http://www.torturegarden.com/gallery/rb02/rb/tg_rb02rb_gal.html#party

Fetish & Uniforms

Alexander

13-12-2003, 09:05 PM

faticeira

13-12-2003, 09:25 PM

That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever read; at least I think it beats the last most ridiculous statement I ever read which was probably also by Mick Mercer.

I know a lot of people that wear Nazi gear and they wear it because they like the way it looks, simple as that. In general, most Nazi imagery had been in use for thousands of years before the Nazis got their hands on it; the swastika symbol itself is an ancient sun symbol that has been used by many cultures from Buddism through to the Vikings.

Somebody like Mr Mercer, who bases himself in a scene that derives it's identity and fashion from a number of sources, should know better. Using his warped sense of logic you could say that if you dress like a vampire, and you don't declare that you're a vampire, then you are worse than a vampire.

Idiot.

I do agree with Alexander.

But of course, not to say there aren't people out there sporting the fashion because in some warped way they uphold the beliefs unfortunately.

I can also imagine now that people would be offended by people wearing American military fashion because of the events that happened and are happening currently.

Then there is camoflage (possibly spelled wrong) stuff....everywhere.

And yes, the swastika symbol has been taken and ruined as people will only link it to evil for the rest of eternity (it's difficult not to). And now it seems perhaps the few racist people will ruin the alternative scene by having people believe it's about following Nazi beliefs and full of racists and closed minded people (which is ridiculous!!):/
Make sense I hope...rambling...

fad

13-12-2003, 09:42 PM

ZRNA

14-12-2003, 12:52 AM

That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever read; at least I think it beats the last most ridiculous statement I ever read which was probably also by Mick Mercer.

I know a lot of people that wear Nazi gear and they wear it because they like the way it looks, simple as that. In general, most Nazi imagery had been in use for thousands of years before the Nazis got their hands on it; the swastika symbol itself is an ancient sun symbol that has been used by many cultures from Buddism through to the Vikings.

Somebody like Mr Mercer, who bases himself in a scene that derives it's identity and fashion from a number of sources, should know better. Using his warped sense of logic you could say that if you dress like a vampire, and you don't declare that you're a vampire, then you are worse than a vampire.

Idiot.

Honestly i think it's not very clever to compare Nazi and vampire fashion.
Vampire is a mythological creature, while nazis were and still are very real. How many people are still harassed, beaten up and hurt by nazis?
There were 3 black people recently killed in my city by a gang of skinheads, not to mention that me and many people i know were attacked by skinheads for the way we look.
Those who flirt with Nazi imagery are idiots(and Mercer doesn't refer to people wearing swastikas in their pre-Nazi form), as in that way they support the most opressive force that ever existed on earth. It'all too serious, it's not a game, and people should realize it before it's too late.

Skylizard

14-12-2003, 03:29 PM

[/quote]

Honestly i think it's not very clever to compare Nazi and vampire fashion.
Vampire is a mythological creature, while nazis were and still are very real. How many people are still harassed, beaten up and hurt by nazis?
There were 3 black people recently killed in my city by a gang of skinheads, not to mention that me and many people i know were attacked by skinheads for the way we look.
Those who flirt with Nazi imagery are idiots(and Mercer doesn't refer to people wearing swastikas in their pre-Nazi form), as in that way they support the most opressive force that ever existed on earth. It'all too serious, it's not a game, and people should realize it before it's too late.[/quote]

Sorry don't agree most oppressive force ever and still is The "Church" and all off spring of so called religion. Chrisians have killed more people throughout History in the name of god than any Nazi regime ever will.

Alexander

14-12-2003, 04:35 PM

Those who flirt with Nazi imagery are idiots(and Mercer doesn't refer to people wearing swastikas in their pre-Nazi form), as in that way they support the most opressive force that ever existed on earth. It'all too serious, it's not a game, and people should realize it before it's too late.

That's why you're not supposed to judge a book by it's cover. It's reasonable to suggest that a nazi isn't necessarily going to dress as one, and likewise someone dressed as a nazi isn't going to be one.

If you object to the way someone looks then I hope you're willing to tolerate anyone that suggests you're an idiot for the way you look. If you accept that people have the right to express themselves how they wish, then you also have to accept that there are people that are going to express themselves in a way not to your liking. I personally don't find it very tasteful but will accept it because the alternative is far worse.

We're already hurtling towards a nanny state where personal freedoms are being removed one by one because people are taking the 'live and let live' principle too far. I'm rather opposed to 1984 coming round but that seems to be where we're eventually headed. Come the day when nazi imagery is outlawed you can bet that other offensive slogans, long hair, tattoes and piercings will be next.

As goths aren't we supposed to be more open minded then the rest of the populace? At least we should be more open to the idea of tolerance in all forms, even of idiots. Acts of nazism, racism etc are undobtedly very wrong but people should always be entitled to believe what they like, as long as they don't act on those beliefs in a way where other people are going to get hurt.

Think I'm rambling a bit here so just to clarify my thoughts; nazism is bad, the right to dress and express yourself freely is good, even if you choose to dress and express yourself as a nazi.

Have to agree with Skylizard as well and it raises an interesting point about how symbols can change for the worse, or sometimes for better. Today the Christian cross is seen as a symbol of peace and love whereas throught the centuries it's also been seen as a bigger symbol of fear and terror than the swastika ever was. The Christian Middle Ages was an era which saw the introduction of the Crusades, the Inquisition, and pogroms against Jews unparalleled in prior human history (including World War II). No other civilization ever has developed a comparable variety of execution and torture methods. Nazism pales in comparison really. But it does show how the meaning of symbols can change in either direction.

panic

14-12-2003, 06:00 PM

Any danger of a serious debate about racism in the alternative community here or what??!!!
For example, does anyone have any strong feelings regarding the section of the fetish crowd who choose to wear Nazi gear, in order to be either shocking, provocative or because they think it's appropriate!!
....and is there an underlying political message there or purely a fashion statement....of sorts?
Discuss.....or alternatively, don't bother...it's your ball-court!!!!
Fad

... so, francesa still dj-ing at the slimes?

people, as goths will tell you, when dressed up [as opposed to casual] wear clothes to either make a statement or express their inner feelings. i am anti oppression of any kind and i'm always glad to see non-white people in slimelight. unfortunately there's not too many of them there, i suppose it's to do with the music that's played. however, i'm suprised not to see loads of casually dressed people on the 'goth' floor, as euro-disco that's played there should be right up their street.

PANIC (http://www.bizarrelove.co.uk)

Lustmord666

14-12-2003, 06:35 PM

I dont think that fascism or Nazism is an opinion, since it's a crime to humanity in my eyes.

I dont have problems that it's banned here in fucking Germany. There's no discussion about banning tattoes or piercing here.

And no the third Reich is not just a small spot in history. To be cynical it is the crown of 2.000 Years of western Civilisation, the industrialized murder of a lot of people that had the wrong religion, skin colour, political opinion or sexual orientation. And yes I know that christianity ( nowadays the agressive behaviour of muslim fundamentalists) killed a lot more people. But to start and compare," oh they only killed 6 Million people" sorry this is a very cynical point of view. Maybe the rockets that hit London in WW II weren't bad as well, just a small incident in the history...

Every crime towards humanity shall and can only be judged by itself.

7thStranger

14-12-2003, 06:47 PM

That's why you're not supposed to judge a book by it's cover. It's reasonable to suggest that a nazi isn't necessarily going to dress as one, and likewise someone dressed as a nazi isn't going to be one.

Ideally... i'd say you were right.
But it doesn't really work this time.
Sure, not all Nazis are going to dress as the Nazis did during the 1930's -1940's. However, if a books cover has images of swastikas and people in SS uniforms all over it, would it be too much to assume that the ideals and beliefs of Nazis were going to be a fairly dominant subject within it's pages?

The Nazi uniform and logo (Swastika) were never intended as fashion statements back then, and they should never be solely seen as that now. They are a uniform and a flag, SYMBOLS. Symbols of a belief that only one race has the right to exist on mother natures earth. This belief of superior racial purity thus propagates in peoples minds the acceptability of oppression towards those who do not fit the bill (so to speak) and a hatred for their racial differences is born and festers.
What i'm trying to say... is that the Nazi uniform is not 'A Look', it is a 'Mindset'.

Come the day when nazi imagery is outlawed you can bet that other offensive slogans, long hair, tattoes and piercings will be next.

Agreed...
To outlaw it (the look) would be ultimately oppressive to everyone in society.
But to place the 'Look' upon your person without a realisation of the 'Meaning' it portrays, is somewhat ignorant.

Ignorance is the biggest killer of all (IMO)

I need a coffee

Alexander

14-12-2003, 07:53 PM

Sure, not all Nazis are going to dress as the Nazis did during the 1930's -1940's. However, if a books cover has images of swastikas and people in SS uniforms all over it, would it be too much to assume that the ideals and beliefs of Nazis were going to be a fairly dominant subject within it's pages?

Of course, and there's a good chance you'd be right. However assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, so in such a case I'd read the book and find out.

As a point, the only three categories of book that consistently sell well are about Cats, Golf and Nazis. This is why if you read the book Golfing for Cats by Alan Coren, you'll find that even though it has a Swastika on the front cover, it's not actually about Nazism at all. Just an example that came to mind. :wink:

7thStranger

14-12-2003, 08:10 PM

This is why if you read the book Golfing for Cats by Alan Coren, you'll find that even though it has a Swastika on the front cover, it's not actually about Nazism at all. Just an example that came to mind. :wink:

LOL .... cool

I think i'll visit Amazon.com now :wink:

My cat's got a mean swing, but his putting is all over the place

BTW... Cheers for the info :D

fad

15-12-2003, 04:07 AM

I'd just like to add a distinction between my gut reaction to men and women donning Nazi or Nazi-style outfits.
Women until very recent history have been, arguably, an oppressed minority in themselves and I appreciate the irony suggested by those ladies who take that image, which is (perhaps regretably) a powerful one, and make it their own. I'd apply the same criteria to blatantly homo-sexual appearing individuals wearing aspects of Nazi imagery...or black people....anyone whom a bona-fide Right wing Nazi would be offended by seeing in the outfit is OK by me.
Francesca just looks good in the out-fit and I haven't heard anyone complaining about that!
In short; Sexy young ladies in Military uniform=good, Skinhead with a swastika on his arm=bad ,Black guy in a tutu and an SS jacket=fucking excellent....I'd buy him a drink!!

ineversaidthat

15-12-2003, 03:13 PM

In short; Sexy young ladies in Military uniform=good, Skinhead with a swastika on his arm=bad ,Black guy in a tutu and an SS jacket=fucking excellent....I'd buy him a drink!!er... isn't this still racism/sexism?
wearing something offensive because it's ironic is funny to some people, but surely it's still offensive?

fad

15-12-2003, 04:45 PM

er... isn't this still racism/sexism?
wearing something offensive because it's ironic is funny to some people, but surely it's still offensive?

Almost certainly but hey, I'm no angel....I'm probably one of the most offensive people I know....I just hate Nazis!! I don't claim any moral high ground here, I'm as bigotted as the rest of the world, I was just curious about what everyone else thought on the subject.
...and don't get me started on organised religion, that could get really nasty!!!

ineversaidthat

15-12-2003, 04:56 PM

...and don't get me started on organised religion, that could get really nasty!!!i thought it had passed that particular stage a long time ago.

ZRNA

15-12-2003, 08:34 PM

Sorry don't agree most oppressive force ever and still is The "Church" and all off spring of so called religion. Chrisians have killed more people throughout History in the name of god than any Nazi regime ever will.

Are you so sure about that? The Third Reich existed for less than 20 years,
while christian religion has existed for 2000 years. I can't even imagine what could have happened during 2000 years of Nazi regime.

Alexander

15-12-2003, 09:02 PM

Eh, but you're comparing what one side did against what one side might have done if they were around for longer.

If you were going to extrapolate like that you would also have to take into account that the Nazis had a much better understanding of science and technology than the Christians would have done in their evil era. But for the time I would have said the Christians were more oppressive than the Nazis.

Icicle

16-12-2003, 01:00 AM

And from my own experience, Christians still are the most oppresive. Given a chance, they will even do it openly. Lots of stuff that is seen here as Muslim fundamentalisam is just a response to imposing traditional Christian values on others.

subkingdom

18-12-2003, 12:18 AM

After all these lovely posts on open mindedness and all this palava, how come (i do wonder sometimes!) "our" lot of self rightous, elistist music oriented microcosm is still frowning, taking the piss or fully dissing other genres of music and, by extension, the lost souls who ventured to the club(maybe brought by a friend, or willing to try it out!) ?
I have seen it happen countless times at Slime and man, it pisses me off!
I can't force a RnB, hip-hop, metal head, funk whatever, fill the gaps as needed here..... to like or even understand me if he/she is not willing to or intellectually interested but I can have no respect for myself and others if I live and therefore go out with the same shitty attitude!
Enough of clans and separations, here!
and Nazism? don't have the time to waste, sorry!

phifflon

18-12-2003, 01:04 AM

The contence of Iconography is the importent factor in clothing and in general in the Scene.
We accept the perverted, the twisted but when the Iconography and imagery is not perverted then it is in general not part of the scene, but is diametricaly opposed to it.

I have avoided any overt mention of any imagry so far, thus enable me to tie the two themes of the above descusion.

If someone enters the club dressed as a monk or a preast we would certainly wonder who they are and start to talk to them or about them, and on one ocassion that I remember they were of the cloth and doing there job by learning how people lived.

If someone comes in wearing black with an reversed crusifix around their neck we would not take a blind bit of notice unless they were drop dead gorgeous. (I love the irony that members of the clergy wear a reversed cross on a long chain so when they bring it up to kiss it is not reversed any more.)

If someone enters the club " dressed in jack boots and a tutu" we may buy them a drink or not depending on you level of brokeness at the time

If someone enters the clud looking like someone from the Wiking Division of the SS you would certainly talk about them and try to know what they are on about.

So in essence we treat both partys the same, we will question their meaning behind the clothes and their believes.
Both the rasist and the religious bigot will inevitably be ejected from the club. Those who wish to learn and understain will stay.

If the Imagery is pervertd, sebverted or twisted then it is welcomed, if not it is questioned.

Flux

18-12-2003, 01:06 PM

Have been meaning to post a reply to this all week but been sidetracked by something called "work".

Firstly, with regards to the "Nazi uniform" wearing at Slimelight;

I think that there are actually only a few people who wear Nazi uniforms to Slime, and this has only emerged over the last few months. There are people who have been going to Slime for a much longer time that wear military uniforms (Francesca for example), but I think that you'll find that these uniforms aren't actually Nazi uniforms...and certainly in the case of the Italian members that wear military uniforms they are in fact Italia Militia uniforms.

Then there is the increase in people wearing pseudo-military clothing. By this I refer to those people who have jumped on the bandwagon so to speak, seeing that there are a few people wearing military style clothes and attempting to imitate. These people stand out like a sore thumb as they haven't quite got it right, and it shows!

Back to the case in point, those people specifically wearing Nazi uniforms...
It's hard to say whether these people are the ones that are causing the racism problem that has appeared, and to say it is them without proof would be discrimination...but at the same time, should these people be allowed to wear Swastika's in Slime? The uniform itself is not overly offensive, even TG has it's own take on it for fetish-wear, but the Swastika is the symbol that provokes a negative reaction. As Lustmord666 said, the Swastika is actually banned in Germany, and being caught wearing one is an arrestable offence. It's a very serious issue. Again referring to Lustmord's post, there are no other restrictions placed on appearance in terms of tattoos or piercings, people are free to do as they please here (although I would imagine a tattoo of a Swastika wouldn't exactly go down too well!).

In closing I'd like to bring to the table that surely racism and discrimination in a club like Slimelight goes against everything that Slimelight is? I mean the clientele is so varied, being from different countries, backgrounds & even having such a broad range of opinions & taste in music. The club is a place that members should feel welcome to come to, regardless of creed, nationality or whatever...not a place where anyone should feel victimised (unless you go down there and manage to get inside wearing trendy gear, but that's just a given really! ;))

subkingdom

19-12-2003, 01:59 AM

fad

19-12-2003, 02:34 AM

When they came for the Jews, I was silent because I was not a Jew.

When they came for the Gypsies, I was silent because I was not a Gypsy.

When they came for the Homosexuals, I was silent because I was not a homosexual.

When they came for the Catholics, I was silent because I was not a Catholic.

When they came for me, I cried for help, but there was no one left to help me.

Dunno why I thought that was pertinent but it kind of illustrates why 'weirdos' should not tolerate Nazis...kind of.

Dave

19-12-2003, 02:37 AM

"When they came for the goths, I was silent because I'm not a goth, I'm an individual."

fad

19-12-2003, 02:55 AM

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
Now there's a motivation to stamp out Nazis where ever they pop up.

Flux

19-12-2003, 11:01 AM

not a place where anyone should feel victimised (unless you go down there and manage to get inside wearing trendy gear, but that's just a given really! )

Oh really? And why would we victimise someone who might be interested or brave enough to face a new club without the appropriate gear? Isn't that a slight form of discrimination?
Take a shot, i'm only playing the Devil's advocate here!

Just being sarcastic there mate, hence the "and manage to get inside wearing trendy gear" part ;)

Over the years that I've been going to Slime I've found it to be one of the friendlier clubs I've visited. I put this down to the members only & alternative scene side of things, in that the people there are there for the music & the clientele (as opposed to some places where people just go to cause trouble etc), and I certainly hope that this isn't something that ever changes about the place :)

hairyben

22-12-2003, 08:21 PM

Anyone wearing a swastika who is suprised by an adverse reaction is a tool. It wasn't that long ago that we were fighting what it represented. Personally I couldn't give a toss either way for it, although I wouldn't wear it as I'm not into making statements. Wear the nazi uniform but swap the swastika for the ban the bomb logo for a giggle. Or a smiley. Thats what the poppies would do.

Mendes

23-12-2003, 06:37 AM

Any danger of a serious debate about racism in the alternative community here or what??!!!
For example, does anyone have any strong feelings regarding the section of the fetish crowd who choose to wear Nazi gear, in order to be either shocking, provocative or because they think it's appropriate!!
....and is there an underlying political message there or purely a fashion statement....of sorts?
Discuss.....or alternatively, don't bother...it's your ball-court!!!!
Fad

Erm isnt the wearing of offensive uniforms illegal under the public order act 1988? I know it would be covered by section 5 of the public order act 1988 or 84 "offensive words, behaviour in a public place" argh I only left the Met 2 years ago :/

Anyway i know there is a law against wearing uniforms in public for the use in political meetings or some shit agh waffle waffle slurp.. :<

Blink

23-12-2003, 11:50 AM

Erm isnt the wearing of offensive uniforms illegal under the public order act 1988? I know it would be covered by section 5 of the public order act 1988 or 84 "offensive words, behaviour in a public place" argh I only left the Met 2 years ago :/

Anyway i know there is a law against wearing uniforms in public for the use in political meetings or some shit agh waffle waffle slurp.. :<

Woohoo, ban everyone from wearing that goth uniform of all black :)

Did anyone see the Louis Theroux programme on Nazis on BBC 2 the other day. I turned it off after a while, the people were just to nuseating, and combined with Louis Theroux being crap and un-incisive, it could have been far more interesting

hairyben

23-12-2003, 08:36 PM

petemachine

24-12-2003, 12:22 AM

Racism is generally brought on by stupid people who fear things they don't understand... let their weakness's be mocked... un-educated ludits who don't know what their talking about.

phifflon

24-12-2003, 10:00 PM

Regrettably racism is not solely restricted to the stupid. Often it is a tool, which is weald by cleaver and intelligent people for there own ends.
:(
From the killing fields of Rwanda, Yugoslavia and East Timor It has been shown time and again that the mob is pushed and intelligent people are behind it.
If someone comes in to Slimes wearing overtly racist attire then they should be questioned and, considered misguided, confronted with the notion that there believes are wrong and shown why.

Regrettably some peoples self worth is so low that they get a kick from confrontational behaviour. Their believes are purely antagonistic and dangerous on a personal level to those at Slimes. Here is were the bouncers come in for our safety. But these people desperately need help and just calling them stupid tools will help no one.

orchid

24-12-2003, 11:24 PM

Any danger of a serious debate about racism in the alternative community here or what??!!!
For example, does anyone have any strong feelings regarding the section of the fetish crowd who choose to wear Nazi gear, in order to be either shocking, provocative or because they think it's appropriate!!
....and is there an underlying political message there or purely a fashion statement....of sorts?
Discuss.....or alternatively, don't bother...it's your ball-court!!!!
Fad

Erm isnt the wearing of offensive uniforms illegal under the public order act 1988? I know it would be covered by section 5 of the public order act 1988 or 84 "offensive words, behaviour in a public place" argh I only left the Met 2 years ago :/

Anyway i know there is a law against wearing uniforms in public for the use in political meetings or some shit agh waffle waffle slurp.. :<

But slimes is a private members club ;)

Anyway, yes.
Racism at slimes - bad :?

oldgoff

25-12-2003, 02:58 PM

I think the reason why the right wing fraternity of The Slimelight crowd is keeping quiet is because Fad has clearly said that they would be ejected from the club, without membership card and teeth! So therefore afraid of the conequences if they express their views. So therefore no debate can be initiated.

fad

25-12-2003, 04:46 PM

Good point..........however, if there are any right-wingers out there with a good solid argument as to why ethnic minorities are inferior, or anyone who doesn't conform should be villified, whatever, this site is pretty anonymous and you never know, they might just persuade us that it's them that are right, and the rest of us wrong!!!.....THEN we kick 'em for being smug:)
Surely someone could smuggle in their opinions under the guise of playing devil's-advocate!

lipstick_trash

25-12-2003, 05:34 PM

well, i dfntly aint right wing but i can try and make something up!

isn't everyone entitled to their own opinion? i find that this tends to be true until someone has an opinion outside our social norms, but regardless of how shocking or innapropriate we may ifnd it, its still their opinion, and we shouldn't be criticising them for it.

to an extent i belive that as long as they dont try and force it on other people, its acceptable. but, theres then the consideratoin of whether someone acts on an opinion, because quite obviously insults or violence can't be condoned.

i dont know. i think people are dfntly entitled to think what they like about whoever they like, because we all do, whether other people can understand ur justifications or not, ur still entitled to ur own beliefs. quite often racism etc a result of an upbringing, ie. parents outdated opinions being reflected onto their children, and i'd like to think eventually people would be open minded enough to look around them and realise everyones equal. hmm.

i dont know where this is going, its not structured at all, i blame the god damn christmas rum, but that was my attempt at creating a debate. everyones entitled to their opinion, regardless of how wrong we see it. but when that opinion is hurting or offending people then its innapropriate. but thats true of everything, not just racism. yeh... that was my attempt at being right wing. it kinda sucked. HMMM.

RAMBLE RAMBLE RAMBLE. yeh. thats me. i think my point was if people want to be racist, be racist, think what u like but theres no need to offend people. does that make sense? i doubt it.

i give up. im gonna go find more rum.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY :D i wish u all many UV presents, hehe, xxxx

oldgoff

25-12-2003, 08:36 PM

Blink

25-12-2003, 09:22 PM

If someone comes in to Slimes wearing overtly racist attire then they should be questioned and, considered misguided, confronted with the notion that there believes are wrong and shown why.

Define "racist attire". The only "obviously racist" attire I can think of would say something along the lines of "Green people are crap and should all be hung".

You cannot make judgements based solely on someone's attire, or that would mean that everyone who wears black is a goth!!

I suppose if were to ban one form of "offensive attire"then we will have to ban all other forms of offensive attire (personally I find the T-shirt that says "jesus is a cunt" deeply offensive, not because I am religious, but because I believe that you should try and avoid going out and overtly insulting about anyones beliefs, be they religious, ethnic, fashion, music, or any thing else)

Where do you draw the line between stopping people's behaviour which is obviously intolerant and unacceptable, and becoming fascistical yourself?

(One man's moral indignation is another man's facism)

lipstick_trash

25-12-2003, 09:25 PM

Is what you saying then...... it is OK to dislike a certain group or race, as long as you just keep that to yourself and not harm anyone?
I kinda agree with that as I used to live in a place with lots of refugees, I got spat on and called a bastard for refusing them money, they used to stand in front of the ticket machines at the tube and intimidate you in to buying the tickets they found on the pavement, crime, muggings went up and I used racist language when describing these people. That dont make me a racist, I never abused/hurt anyone and I would still hold the door open if one was behind me

precisely, ur entitled to dislike them, but ur not a racist, because u dislike them because of their personality & actions, not because of their race.

&i also think a lot of the time when people use racist language its not used abusively, its just that unfortunately, these are the easiest words when generalising. ie. people might be referred to as "pakis" not because that person calling them that is racist, but because that person is indeed from pakistan, and its the easiest way to refer to them. its not necessarily right, but it happens.

and yeh, i guess that is what im saying, purely because everybody has the right to think what they want, whether the majority thinks its right or not. i just dont like that in a country where we have freedom of speech and thought, this only applies until someone disagrees. its as if u can think what u like, as long as everybody agrees with you.

lipstick_trash

25-12-2003, 09:28 PM

Where do you draw the line between stopping people's behaviour which is obviously intolerant and unacceptable, and becoming fascistical yourself?

(One man's moral indignation is another man's facism)

damn good point. *tips hat to blink*

this strikes me as the kind of debate that has no solid conclusion? i suppose one solution would just be to allow everyone to wear what they desire, nazi uniform, jesus tshirts or whatever, and try not to get offended. but of course we dont work like that. :? i wish it was easier to dismiss these kind of things, but as long as people have strong views someones always going to be offended.

oldgoff

26-12-2003, 11:36 AM

lipstich_Trash wrote....&i also think a lot of the time when people use racist language its not used abusively, its just that unfortunately, these are the easiest words when generalising. ie. people might be referred to as "pakis" not because that person calling them that is racist, but because that person is indeed from pakistan, and its the easiest way to refer to them. its not necessarily right, but it happens "HOW Do YOU DO THAT QUOTE BOX THING?"

The word "Paki" is over used! Our local off licence is referred to as "The Paki Shop" BUT I know they are from Afghanastan, I went out with a Greek girl for 3 years, she was often called "Paki"!

Most so called racists, still enjoy a good curry, like most homophobes still enjoy a good lesbian porn.

rx_noire

26-12-2003, 08:41 PM

toot toot gents.

i dress militant. why? because i pull it off well, and look fucking sassed out.

i've done so since i was <s>17</s> old enough to be out clubbing.

my outfits may LOOK like something rather right-wing at times, but it's a fashion statement. a sassy fashion statement. and that's all it is.

i, myself, am a marxist, and about as far from racist as one would get.

~<3

rx_noire

26-12-2003, 08:58 PM

(Personally, I have a strict editing policy; send me neo-folk records and they go in the bin.)

hahaha.

ahahahaha.

At a Treffen event (was it 2002?) some left-wingers attacked the neo-community at some performance. Ironically, the sound of baseball bats against Nazi bones was probably more rhythmical and melodious than the band involved, but when I had people contacting me to see what I thought, it was again noticeable that when I said I thought this was the perfect answer to the problem, the e-mails stopped. Clearly I was being courted as a potential spokesman! Wankers.

...okay i don't know where to begin with this. so i'll just say fail fail broadmoor jail.

Mendes

27-12-2003, 04:10 AM

Any danger of a serious debate about racism in the alternative community here or what??!!!
For example, does anyone have any strong feelings regarding the section of the fetish crowd who choose to wear Nazi gear, in order to be either shocking, provocative or because they think it's appropriate!!
....and is there an underlying political message there or purely a fashion statement....of sorts?
Discuss.....or alternatively, don't bother...it's your ball-court!!!!
Fad

Erm isnt the wearing of offensive uniforms illegal under the public order act 1988? I know it would be covered by section 5 of the public order act 1988 or 84 "offensive words, behaviour in a public place" argh I only left the Met 2 years ago :/

Anyway i know there is a law against wearing uniforms in public for the use in political meetings or some shit agh waffle waffle slurp.. :<

But slimes is a private members club ;)

Anyway, yes.
Racism at slimes - bad :?

Thing is I could turn up at slimes tomorrow and get in without a membership.

lipstick_trash

27-12-2003, 02:59 PM

Thing is I could turn up at slimes tomorrow and get in without a membership.

to an extent yes, but il bet u a tenner if turned up wearing a shirt with the words "KILL ALL JEWS" emblazoned across it, theyd suddenly find a problm with ur lack of membership. well, id like to think.

fad

27-12-2003, 03:52 PM

sprutorgie

27-12-2003, 08:07 PM

some people try to encourage others to think twice and not judge the book by its cover. just because someone is wearing offensive symbols it doesn't mean they are racists. the whole point is to cause debate about what racism is really about - opinions and not looks. people who point accusing fingers at those who are trying to make this statement basically say: "we live in a free world - look like whatever you want to look like EXCEPT if you wanna wear something that resembles nazi symbolism". can you get any more confused? you're shooting yourself in your foot. narrow-minded people tend to judge people by the way they look, their skin colour, religion, etc. if you make an effort you will notice that underneath the surface is a person with a heart and soul. you don't have to wear a "gegen nazis" patch to be a nice person....

look deeper

antimosh

27-12-2003, 08:18 PM

I wear a russian officers hat, which i rebandged with a warhammer 40k badge on (gameswork shop stuff, imperial eagle defenders of humanity!)
i'm not racist and it annoys me when ppl come over and tell me of
there collection of nazi memorabilia, etc.. if they really a collecter and learned, they'ed notice its not a german hat! its getting quite bad where i live as there a lot of nazi punks, and ppl thinking being a nazi is cool. I really like silmes as you can be yourself and i've had no hassle :)
OH just cos some of the bands in the BM scene are NS doesnt BM'ers are!
poor us.

:twisted

Alexander

27-12-2003, 11:12 PM

il bet u a tenner if turned up wearing a shirt with the words "KILL ALL JEWS" emblazoned across it, theyd suddenly find a problm with ur lack of membership. well, id like to think.Then your wish has come true...damn fucking straight we would!!!!!! :)

I'm still trying to get my hands on a t-shirt that says "Kill All Goths". I already have one that says "All Goths Must Be Destroyed", but it's more words and smaller print than I'd really like. :P

antimosh

29-12-2003, 01:49 AM

:evil: That very night i posted last i had some guy hassle me for half a hour our side our club, begging and pleading to join a white power group of which me and best mate (who is very obviously cyber) were leaders? it didn't look like he was on anything, and his knowledge of hitler facts was impresive, but he wouldnt belive me, even the nazi punks wouldn't talk to him.they kept pushing him away, i hadn't met someone that closeminded since my RE teacher!! well it was kinda funny untill we started to freeze

panic

29-12-2003, 03:07 PM

oh, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzze tell me who that is, point him out. i'd like to talk to nazi cunts, make very good friends with them, get close.

panic

ps. just posting my latest playlist

Mendes

29-12-2003, 09:50 PM

Wearing Nazi symbols has been going on for years. Read up on the sex pistols and watch some of there videos and you will see the nazi marks. I read in a interview with sid vicious that he didnt even know what the swastika ment and was doing it shock people. Problem is that the doormen at slimes cant read peoples minds, and i am not sure if they are even aware of the whole "shock" thing. Where do you draw the line with what people wear and genuinely beleive in and what they wear for the shock appeal. If you want to try and sort this problem out, put someone on the door who knows their shit about these issues. (no offence to the current head of security!, Fad does a good job, Just some constructive critcism :)-)
One other issue which may be of interest. As we live in a multicultural society clubs, shops, restraunts, Police, employ or attempt to employ a multi cultural workforce. Now this applies to Slimes like any other club. Thing is with this multicultural workforce such as the door men and security guards is that they all have their own views things such as the wearing of nazi cloathing. Do they know where to draw the line? or where is the line ment to be drawn. Should slimes have an improved implemented policy on employing open minded, fair, bouncers.. Who dont let in trendy arseholes (but thats another issue).I think that the club board needs to set out policies which apply to the wearing of offensive racist cloathing and other memorabilia (if they havent allready done so), if they have done this maybe it needs to be looked at and brought into line with the present law on the wearing of offensive uniforms and section 4, 4a and 5 of the public order act 1984 - 1988.

The issue of non members getting in needs to be looked at and maybe a zero tollerance policy stance taken against -- no card no entry! Exceped for when you are acctualy accompanied by a member as I believe the club policy states. Then again on the other side of things if slimes addopts this strict door policy then they are gonna lose money from the people that would have come without a membership. Especialy if they want to pic up a membership form. Maybe change the member ship procedure, after all if the only time you can pick up a card and get membership is on the night 10pm till 2pm or whaever it is, then maybe this is going to put people off. Also again change the way in which people are admitted. Maybe have a proper interview and appoint someone to do this instead of 2 members signing a form which is looked over and accepted in the space of two minutes by an underpaid employee :P Again this should come down to bearing the racist and other lawfull issues in mind when admitting people and securing membership.
At the risk of sounding like a university exam question "Discuss".

lipstick_trash

30-12-2003, 01:23 PM

i think that kind of door policy would be very very extreme, and totally unecessary.

people prbly do have some ironic meanings to their outfits or wear it for shock value, so maybe the prblm should just lie within offensive remarks.

so maybe we should let people wear what they want, if it seems offensive to you, ask them and im sure theyl explain what point it is theyre making. then, if the person really is a racist you can damn well smack them round the face :D and call me over and il do the same, hehe.

Dawnrazor

30-12-2003, 11:58 PM

Racism should not be tolerated in a club situation or otherwise,at the end of the day 99% of us are in a club for enjoyment but there is the small element that only reveal themselves as racist after a couple of beers. I have just given up my job as a head doorman in Leicester (to be with my new baby) which has a high asian/afro carribean population and in most cases the door policy is often correct given the circumstances and security need to be respected as such in all clubs as they are there to maintain safety for all and ensure you have a good night :wink:

phifflon

31-12-2003, 07:48 PM

Define "racist attire". The only "obviously racist" attire I can think of would say something along the lines of "Green people are crap and should all be hung".

You cannot make judgements based solely on someone's attire, or that would mean that everyone who wears black is a goth!!

Hmmm looking at the replies it is sad that people do not know what is clearly racist and what is shock. :cry:
The fact that people are pre occupied with military and black is a shame.
Sadly there is no clear dress code for racists, it would make life easier, but if some one comes to the door with a loot of patches on there coat and one is Combat 18 than the is CLEARLY RACIST ATTIRE.
Ignore the Third Rich and their uniforms because that means nothing.
If theyâ€™re warring a SCREEWDRIVER T-shirt then that again is
CLEARLY RACIST ATTIRE.
These are only two example, the list is sadly large but a out line list for the door staff to work with is possible.

Where do you draw the line between stopping people's behaviour which is obviously intolerant and unacceptable, and becoming fascistical yourself?

(One man's moral indignation is another man's facism)

A totalitarian is told by a liberal to stop it :wink:

A liberal society does have lines, which shall not be crossed; we do not live in a total free society. The lines are drawn by popular consciences with pear review; it is called parliamentary democracy.

Voodoobutter

19-02-2004, 09:28 PM

One thing's certain - Nazi-esque clothing attracts a lot of attention, this long thread being an example.

Maybe that's why people walk around dressed that way in clubs?

Ignore it and then it's not there, in this case. Let it float past you like those Tai Chi guys do, as Frank Zappa said. :)

As for straightforward racism, it's a shame you can't even escape it in a place as liberal as Slimelight, but sadly it's not that surprising..

panic

20-02-2004, 10:42 AM

what makes you think that people who attend slimelight are liberal? some of them - yes, of course. but let's say you're black or asian, you walk in there and all you see are white kids. you go upstairs to see the band you love playing live and find that when the singer comes on stage half way through the second track (first one is an instrumental) loads of people leave and go to the middle floor. why? well, he's not white. this maybe sounds democratic, everybody is entitled to their opinion, but liberal....

P A N I C (http://www.bizarrelove.co.uk)

Voodoobutter

20-02-2004, 12:39 PM

It came across as being a fairly liberal place. The impression I got was there was a pretty tolerant atmosphere in there.

People leaving when the singer comes on though.. maybe they didn't like the way he or she was singing? Or maybe there are loads of bigoted people in Slimelight... I hope the band had an irritating tone deaf singer!

Flux

20-02-2004, 01:01 PM

Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I personally wouldn't leave if a singer of a different skin colour to myself came on...I would however leave if said singer was shite!

20-02-2004, 01:24 PM

Generally, If I'm there when a band starts, I'll have a listen, but I usually (but not always) find them crap & leave. This is not necessarily a true reflection of their talent or musicality. It is because I've got mashed & gone out to do some clubbing, so watching a band in this state is just tedious for me!! 8)

lucifierschild

25-03-2004, 03:41 AM

Any danger of a serious debate about racism in the alternative community here or what??!!!
For example, does anyone have any strong feelings regarding the section of the fetish crowd who choose to wear Nazi gear, in order to be either shocking, provocative or because they think it's appropriate!!
....and is there an underlying political message there or purely a fashion statement....of sorts?
Discuss.....or alternatively, don't bother...it's your ball-court!!!!
Fad

there's suppose to be ...or was originally this underlaying idea than gothic women/ homosexuals and coloured people.. and ne. one else excluded out of the Nazi regime could wear the uniform as a spite at them!! Maybe not very mature... but the idea was that we are all equal now and anyone can wear their uniform to point out that their fascist propaganda ideas lost out!!!! unfortunately some people have not understood this concept and take it as an excuse to become fascist dictators themselves which is wrong.. come on guys we have move on a long way from this!!! thouse horrors that we saw in Schindler's List and other movies.. really DID happen.. but it was in the past... lets not let it happen again!!

demonbitch

25-03-2004, 10:18 AM

and coloured people..

WTF does that mean? Have you just time travelled from the 70s?

Skylizard

25-03-2004, 01:17 PM

and coloured people..

WTF does that mean? Have you just time travelled from the 70s?

Those fucking tellie tubbies

lemontwist

18-05-2004, 04:42 PM

has anyone considered that nazi's arent the only group of people who are racist?? i mean as soon as someone says racist people automatically assume nazi's.......

buriedunderfloorboards

25-05-2004, 10:59 PM

""""Any danger of a serious debate about racism in the alternative community here or what??!!!
For example, does anyone have any strong feelings regarding the section of the fetish crowd who choose to wear Nazi gear, in order to be either shocking, provocative or because they think it's appropriate!!
....and is there an underlying political message there or purely a fashion statement....of sorts?
Discuss.....or alternatively, don't bother...it's your ball-court!!!! """"

okay, so as a rule i seldom post replies to things like this, but as this (to an extent) effects me, i felt a need to reply.

i, as well as any of my friends, do dress in german military uniforms much of the time. when i visited london about a week ago (im american, sorry about my country btw) i even wore my german military jacket with a death in june patch on the back, this does not make me a racist. much of it, like much of goth/industrial culture, is simply fashion. its not as though any of us would wear swastika bands on our arms (which siouxsie sioux used to), or judge anyone based on skin colour. its not as though every kid who wears bondage pants is into s&m, its fucking fashion. maybe its not as tasteful as wearing vinyle pants and eye liner, but at its core its just aesthetics.

as far as any political statement i or any of my friends are trying to make, our mission is not to discriminate against anyone. my fashion has become more militant b/c living in america right now, thats what our world is. this is my statement that the america of today is no better than the nazi germany of the past. we are subject to more propaganda than anyone realizes. the nazi's were sick, no one will argue that. but the lies that my government smothers the americans with are never ending. i dont know if england is subject to american news, but its the biggest waste bin of lies and deceit since nazi ruled germany. i may sound a bit extreme, but i mean it, go to an american news web site. people here are more concerned with gay marrige debate than the fact that out military is killing people senselessly every minute. i generally have to go to british web sites to find out what attrocities my president is really up to.

this may just be a rant, and it may make no case. fashion is fashion. just remember that not all people who are inclined to wear military gear and shave their head are nazis. maybe in the uk you guys never witnessed the skin head punk movement that was abundant in america 15 - 20 years ago. douglas p of death in june has played numerous anti racist festivals in both crisis and death in june. the first death in june show was at a anti racist benefit. keep your opinions, but dont ever fucking generalize,...forgive me for being a bit shocked to see a slimelight staff member post a comment about kids wearing german military uniforms, and then have death in june play right after. at least we dont dance with glow sticks at a supposed goth club (whats the deal with that anyways?)..

just the same, i do love london...even if i was called a nazi too many times to count, even when i wasnt wearing military gear. and i had a fun time dancing at your club and meeting so many friendly people. thank you for your hospitality..

out
luke

Blink

26-05-2004, 02:00 AM

at least we dont dance with glow sticks at a supposed goth club (whats the deal with that anyways?)..

I should imagine it would have something to do with Slimelight not being a goth club. To quote Slimelight's official website

The Slimelight is London's longest running alternative club dealing in industrial, power-noise, cyber-synth, ebm, cyber-goth, darkwave, trad + modern goth, plus crossover and related alternative sounds

There are plenty of goth clubs in London if you want to go to one. (I am assuming you were refering to Slimelight when you said "supposed goth club")

BTW, your points about fashion being fashion are pretty spot on, but people do judge a book by its cover. (how do you tell if someone is making a statement, being fashionable, being ironic, or just wearing some clothes they happen to like?)

Kittie

26-05-2004, 09:56 PM

the one thing that i think i have had a problem with, not nessecerily within the cummunity - Since im not exactly "active" within the "cummunity" so i dont really know- but with other people, is peoples respect for Jesus.

Not Christianity - Jesus. Jesus didnt want to start a religion, Jesus wasnt planning on having millions killed in his name, All he wanted was for people to be nice to eachother, respect eachothers opinions, and drink beer.

And i hope i speak for some part (if not all??) of the gothic Cummunity when i say thats all we want - isnt it?

Meny people seem to believe that as a goth i should hate Jesus, but i personally believe he was an alright guy. I would want him to be my friend. i dont think it makes me anyless of a Goth to want to be nice to people and for them to be nice to me, to want respect and to give respect, and - well im not personally the Beer type, but you get the picture right?

i dont know really what the rest of you think about this, and its not like im the sort of person to condem songs - e.g. like Wumpsctus "christFuck" - for being... for making "obscene" refferences to Jesus. it doesnt bother me.

im not entirely sure what im trying to say anymore, so i think ill go back to bed, but i hope you get my meaning :oops: oops

Btw, i cant spell :cry:

Kittie

26-05-2004, 10:05 PM

buriedunderfloorboards

27-05-2004, 12:14 AM

The Slimelight is London's longest running alternative club dealing in industrial, power-noise, cyber-synth, ebm, cyber-goth, darkwave, trad + modern goth, plus crossover and related alternative sounds

There are plenty of goth clubs in London if you want to go to one. (I am assuming you were refering to Slimelight when you said "supposed goth club")

thank you for your positive comment, however, i must point out a couple things. im certainly not trying to dub slimelight only as a goth club, but saying slimelight is straight up not a goth club is a bit hard to believe. okay, so this club has a dress code ,,,,basically all black. now mood is a great thing, but what kind of mood are they trying to convey? i know that slimelight supports multiple sub genres, but regadless one must admit that it does attempt to present itself with a goth/industrial view. i love goth music, as well as many other types of music, and it would be a bit boring if they played nothing but goth music,,but again, when i used the word "goth" it was for the most part a blanket word to cover the sub genres that slimelight tends to attract, which are darker in nature. i apologize for not making that more clear. either way, i guess im just not the biggest fan of glow sticks, but i admit that so long as people of like musical tastes can get together to have fun without anyone getting hurt, its all for the best. everyone has their own way of dancing....who am i to judge......

Blink

27-05-2004, 11:06 AM

but i admit that so long as people of like musical tastes can get together to have fun without anyone getting hurt, its all for the best. everyone has their own way of dancing....who am i to judge......

Nicely put. ( i should warn you now that I am part of the WLF, White Liberation Front, I am happy to wear white in a club, used to wave glow sticks, and not a goth, but I do like the beepy & noisey stuff).

Anyway, this is getting us off topic.

Do people ever turn up in Soviet Bloc uniforms? To people notice the difference and call them communists, not fascists?
Why don't communists get the same stick, after all, Stalin and that lot probably did as many, if not more attrocities, they just spread it out over a long period, and did it all behind an (iron) curtain.

Guy13

27-05-2004, 11:31 AM

Do people ever turn up in Soviet Bloc uniforms? To people notice the difference and call them communists, not fascists?
Why don't communists get the same stick, after all, Stalin and that lot probably did as many, if not more attrocities, they just spread it out over a long period, and did it all behind an (iron) curtain.

I know someone who wore a Soviet naval uniform and was called a fascist for it. It just goes to show how people are willing to jump to conclusions without having a clue what they're talking about. :roll:

Jesus

27-05-2004, 11:34 AM

I wore a shroud and got nailed to a piece of wood!!

Bastards they were, but don't tell Dad I said that!!

uglydolly

17-06-2004, 01:57 PM

wlf?wtf?if there is a white bliberation front in slimes, truly i am its lord and master!
as for the nazi outfits, well, little boys like to play soldiers, don't they?

fad

17-06-2004, 03:20 PM

forgive me for being a bit shocked to see a slimelight staff member post a comment about kids wearing german military uniforms, and then have death in june play right after.
I didn't mean to sound judgemental, from the point of view of the club, merely to try and get a general response from the clientele as to what they'd like to see us doing, or not doing (if anything) with regards to this issue. On numerous occasions we've had people complain to us about those wearing Nazi uniforms, and leave for no other reason than the clothing of others which, though I sympathise, is not a basis for club policy. I also (being a woolly Liberal) defend Buriedunderfloorboards right to make a statement through his/her clothing, and appreciate that it's sometimes done to make an ironic statement.
The purpose of this thread was to try and get the general feeling from you lot to see if it warranted pursuing an official policy on the subject or not......but I'm guessing a bit of tolerance from both sides of the fence is all it needs.

Kite

20-06-2004, 08:00 PM

The issue of non members getting in needs to be looked at and maybe a zero tollerance policy stance taken against -- no card no entry! Exceped for when you are acctualy accompanied by a member as I believe the club policy states. Then again on the other side of things if slimes addopts this strict door policy then they are gonna lose money from the people that would have come without a membership. Especialy if they want to pic up a membership form. Maybe change the member ship procedure, after all if the only time you can pick up a card and get membership is on the night 10pm till 2pm or whaever it is, then maybe this is going to put people off. Also again change the way in which people are admitted. Maybe have a proper interview and appoint someone to do this instead of 2 members signing a form which is looked over and accepted in the space of two minutes by an underpaid employee :P Again this should come down to bearing the racist and other lawfull issues in mind when admitting people and securing membership.
At the risk of sounding like a university exam question "Discuss".

I don't quite like the idea of having a strict members only club. I've only been in London for a month and just discovered Slimelight last week. It's been the best two Saturday nights for me in a such a long time. I asked about the membership yesterday, but was disappointed when they asked for two members to sign the form. I don't know anyone yet and I'm too shy to speak to anyone. It is understandable that you do not want the Average Beerboy showing up and ruining the place, but it only takes a good look from the door staff to know who belongs and who doesn't.

<My first post :oops: >

Loki

21-06-2004, 12:00 AM

wlf?wtf?if there is a white bliberation front in slimes, truly i am its lord and master!
as for the nazi outfits, well, little boys like to play soldiers, don't they?

Well all I can say is they may think they look sexy in their ss uniforms . .but in a dark club they look like fucking bus conductors to me ;-)

uglydolly

21-06-2004, 02:26 PM

christ, they DO look like bus conductors...
as for accepting soviet/communist uniforms over nazi outfits, i'd feel the same way. stalin was still a tyrant. totalitarianism is wrong, which ever way you look at it. i think a u.s. outfit would probably be in bad taste at the moment also...

fad

21-06-2004, 03:02 PM

Shit, that probably means that those guys who keep harrassing me on the bus aren't actually Nazis??! How come they keep demanding to know where I'm going and asking for money then? Sounds pretty Nazi to me!

uglydolly

21-06-2004, 03:05 PM

well, they could be, or maybe bus conductors.
but most likely between holloway and angel...crack heads.

blodrone

21-06-2004, 07:13 PM

i jumped from page 2 to here ... whilst thinking of what to wear for my first visit i did linger on the idea of a uniform, a huntsman uniform ... i dont belive in hunting and farmers would still pest controll foxes [in a less pompus way] if it were to be finally banned, but in wearing the red jacket and white johdpurs [or whatever fancy name they give the trousers] would not mean i advocate hunting or go hunting myself.

ive not toyed with the nazi uniform, but it does look good on some women
having said that even the ugliest of women seem to look better @ school disco type events once they don a pleated skirt and white ankle socks

Kite

28-06-2004, 06:10 PM

Didn't quite like the fact that I heard a guy call one of the girls in the coat room "Japan". It's not a racist word, but the sense (and tone) that it was used was not exactly friendly.

lemontwist

28-06-2004, 06:59 PM

Hmmm... Japan is a cool place i wanna move there one day i reckon that guy was just jealous :D I would be[/b]

Kite

29-06-2004, 02:28 PM

Hmmm... Japan is a cool place i wanna move there one day i reckon that guy was just jealous :D I would be

I visited Tokyo for a week and it is truly amazing. I would love to work there too :D

P.S. - Hope I wasn't being too sensitive with what that guy said, but even little things like that can really hurt people emotionally.

lemontwist

29-06-2004, 02:35 PM

Cool!

I dont think you were to sensitive because people often confuse racism as just words but its not always the case. i could call some1 a nigger in a light joking way, and not mean it to be racist. but some1 else could just like that guy say it in a harsh tone - it completely changes the meaning of the word!

blodrone

03-07-2004, 10:09 PM

Didn't quite like the fact that I heard a guy call one of the girls in the coat room "Japan". It's not a racist word, but the sense (and tone) that it was used was not exactly friendly.

at work we have one guy who refers to another guy as portuguise [his home country], now as they know each other its seen in a different light

someone else said something similar
its not what you say its how you say it and to who

Danny

03-07-2004, 11:55 PM

My philosophy is quite simple: everyone can wear what they want and toy with any imagery ... but they bring the consequences upon themselves! Too easy to dress like a Nazi and then say "ooh, but I'm not one", how am I to know? You dress like a Nazi? fine, but I'll treat you like one... and I hate the bastard fuckers.

Bit blunt? Maybe but hey, that's me.

lemontwist

04-07-2004, 06:22 PM

I Kinda agree with you Danny that ppl who dress and arent Nazi bring it on themselves. Its a different matter when you talk about the colour of someone's skin - thats not their fault. But dressing in a certain way then complainling when people are hostile towards them kinda makes me think - what did you expect??

Skylizard

04-07-2004, 06:59 PM

lemontwist

05-07-2004, 01:14 AM

Thats not being hypocritical. He's not saying they shouldnt and cant dress that way - he's just pointing out that if they get called nazi then they shouldnt complain about it.

Skylizard

05-07-2004, 12:16 PM

Thats not being hypocritical. He's not saying they shouldnt and cant dress that way - he's just pointing out that if they get called nazi then they shouldnt complain about it.

I'll come back to this...

lemontwist

05-07-2004, 01:20 PM

You do that. :P

Kite

05-07-2004, 02:22 PM

its not what you say its how you say it and to who
I agree totally. That's why I mentioned that I didn't like the tone he used.

Skylizard

05-07-2004, 03:00 PM

Thats not being hypocritical. He's not saying they shouldnt and cant dress that way - he's just pointing out that if they get called nazi then they shouldnt complain about it.

Actually he was been hypocritical, people can wear what they want fine, you dress like a Nazi i'll treat you like one...

My replay originally should have been to alot of people who replied on this thread, I won't sell my political views, mainly because it's nothing to do with anybody here, and they are very strong, unfashionable at the best of times. Most people here have bitched and moaned about how people dress at slimes promoting an image of one or another kind and because it doesn't fit in with there idea or fashionable route of thinking have been vilified and become outcasts in a manner of speaking and most of these people moaning about it are the same people who moan about Joe public who pass comment about their appearance and pass judgement about their appearance and who they might be without knowing them. If someone wants to be racist or nazi or whatever that's their choice, if someone wants to be so far left liberal, isalmic, animal right protestor etc etc that's their choice and everyone has a reason for been who they are, but just like anything you get people in all forms of followings who are extremists, and to me some who injures people for animal rights is just the same as someone who does it for nazi beliefs.
People here are really no better than joe public in making assumptions about people they don't know.

mr_trikkle

05-07-2004, 09:02 PM

how did the guy dressed as a chicken manage teh nigth without passing out from heat stroke????? :?:

Danny

05-07-2004, 09:15 PM

[quote=lemontwist][b] If someone wants to be racist or nazi or whatever that's their choice

What a load of bollocks, being racist or nazi IS harming other people and discriminating against categories of people is not allowed by the law (and rightly so!). It's this putting fucking nazis on the same level with any other fashion/social/political group that gets me. Granted, every group has an extremist, the difference is that nazis are ALL extremists AND dangerous.

I repeat, come to me dressed as a nazi - don't expect me to be friendly with you; act in a racist/fascist way or show me in any other way you are one - expect a lot of trouble, I stand by what I said.

mr_trikkle

05-07-2004, 09:20 PM

most things if ignored disappear
right or wrong???

Skylizard

05-07-2004, 09:25 PM

[quote=lemontwist][b] If someone wants to be racist or nazi or whatever that's their choice

extremist, the difference is that nazis are ALL extremists AND dangerous.

I repeat, come to me dressed as a nazi - don't expect me to be friendly with you; act in a racist/fascist way or show me in any other way you are one - expect a lot of trouble, I stand by what I said.

You wouldn't know a Nazi if he\she came up and bit you in the ass. When you've been to Germany and actually experianced and spent time with Nazi' then come back here and try have a discussion, because right now you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And by threating people telling them to expect trouble that makes you different from them how?????

Danny

06-07-2004, 06:36 PM

[quote=lemontwist][b] If someone wants to be racist or nazi or whatever that's their choice

You wouldn't know a Nazi if he\she came up and bit you in the ass. When you've been to Germany and actually experianced and spent time with Nazi' then come back here and try have a discussion, because right now you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And by threating people telling them to expect trouble that makes you different from them how?????

There's no need to go to Germany (where I've been quite a few times, btw) to know what a nazi is, there's plenty in this and pretty much any other country as well, other terms to define them include fascists, racist scum, boneheads, far-right activists, etc, or anyone who violently or openly discrimitates against one or more groups of people based on the colour of their skin, nationality, religion etc. And PLEASE don't tell me nazis aren't necessarily like that, you'd only make me laugh! (besides, you even stated that it's someone's right to be racist, which I strongly disagree with).

What makes me different you ask... well, I don't start, I never attack first, not even nazis, however seeing as I'm no christian or pacifist either I don't have any problem in hitting back when someone bacomes dangerous. That's why I said ACT in a racist way, BEHAVE like one and you can expect trouble; DRESS like one and I won't do anything, although of course you can forget about me being friendly or even just wasting my time talking to you (and before you say it I know you probably wouldn't be interested either), or is my refusal to tell you how beautifully dressed you are and how big and clever the statement you're supposedly making is so unacceptable for you?

Finally, I have been referring to "you" all along but I'm aware you may not even dress like nazis, you may just be debating for argument'ssake or whatever.

That's it, topic over on my side, I only visit this site on average twice a year anyway, and I set my eyes on this particular topic by chance when I came to check when the goth floor is on next (only times I bother with slimes at all these days so even the chances of us ever even meeting are slim I suppose), won't happen again too soon and I have no desire to debate endlessly about this or any other topic on an Internet forum.

sprutorgie

13-07-2004, 03:46 PM

I find it a bit ironic that the very same people who support a "free" society, as in no rules, no government, no cencorship, quite often tend to dismiss people wearing "nazi" gear. Are you really that hypocritical? Has it ever occured to you that some people might wear militia clothing to show their disgust *against* the whole idea of regimes, war, dictatorship and oppression? Symbolism is interesting. I personally am not "religious" in the dictionary sense I have a wooden cross on the wall above my bed, because I am deeply interested in Christianity and other religions. Likewise I am deeply interested in historical events, and the recent nazi era is quite amazing in the sense that Hitler managed to form an army of cows who trotted along wherever he wanted to go.

Lots of people who wear pentagrams (pentacles) believe these symbols represent something evill, and they have no clue the symbol historically represents beauty, perfection and the divine.

Of course there are people who are offended by fascist clothing, particularly if they themselves directly or indirectly have been a victim to fascism. But it is deeply important that they and others do not associate evil with outer appearance. It is a sad fact that we all judge people by the way they look, even if we pretend not to. I can assure you've been sitting next to dangerous people on the bus without ever having a clue, just because they looked normal, although when you see the guy with fascist-looking clothing you probably imagine him being a nasty character without having the faintest idea other than just his outer appearance.

Some people wear fascist clothing because they are interested and yet digusted by such regimes, others wear it as a fetish thing...still of course there are those who are just plain nazis and take the opportunity to wear fascist gear knowing that people like you wouldn't know for sure if they are actually nazis or just wearing the clothes for other reasons.

We fear what we do know know.

Icicle

21-08-2004, 09:28 PM

I guess Sprutorgie ment that we fear what we do not know, which is then in contradiction with what he wrote before, that people are offended by nazi clothing because of their bad experiences with fascists. Well, then they know what they are dealing with and it is not unknown to them. If one has to attract attention by shocking people with the way they dress there surely are other things to wear? I personaly do consider militia uniforms a great turn-on, but to wear simbols like clockwise swastika to me means propagating a belief I strongly disagree with. If one is wearing these things just as a fashion statement then I think it's such bad taste and that person must be stupid and ignorant of other people's feelings.
Also, what is amazing about making an army out of a herd of cows who aimlessly wander about? You just give them some idea and they will follow. And feel that safety in numbers. Same thing with religion (shepard and sheep). Fantastic: no need to think for yourself, just stick with the herd and follow the leader.
I form my own opinions upon my knowledge and experiences and let others do the same. But there is a limit to my tolerance and nazi attire with nazi symbols is a BIG NO to me.

gothic_diva

17-07-2005, 10:43 PM

i see that this is an old discussion, but still i feel compelled to reply. though i recognize that not every person who wears these clothes is a nazi, i cannot help but be disturbed by this fashion or any sort of glorification of these symbols. i am a person of colour who is in the scene. i am mixed german and indian. my german side cringes at this dark side of history. my indian side feels unsafe when not being sure whether this person is just doing it for the sake of fashion. i was once in a situation where i was was dancing in a club with a friend who is also a person of colour and we got harrassed by real nazis and they outnumbered us. we refused to leave despite feeling uncomfortable. we felt that as we are part of the scene that we were entitled to stay. there were very few people in the club at the time, but still no one felt it necessary to intervene on our behalf either. now i cringe when i see nazis and don't feel like wasting my time trying to figure out if the person is one for real.

hsbc-c0re

23-07-2005, 11:04 PM

I understand that the Nazi's reversed the original swastika so that instead of a symbol of the spinning wheel giving out energy it becomes a wheel absorbing energy! If people want to go with the original pagan swastika that's an interesting conversation point and not something people can really moan about....but if they choose to wear the modern Nazi version they should be aware that they're not referencing the pagan magical stuff, just the modern fascist stuff....and should expect the antagonism that that warrants.

this is a common misconception... in hindu/sanskrit symbology the clockwise and counter-clockwise swastikas are equally "valid" forms, representing creation and destruction respectively. hitler chose the form representing creation, ironically enough.

my opinion... wearing a swastika to a night club is at best very poor taste. but hey, the goth subculture has always been dominated by the white middle class. so when people think that freedom of fashion expression is more important than some random person of colour, who by implication doesn't belong in this scene anyway, who is in the club getting made to feel uncomfortable, i can understand their perspective. and i utterly condemn it.